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letzter Beitrag von Snoopy am

C65-ROM-MEGA-Debatte

    Zitat von mega65
    Zitat von FeralChild

    Definitely not a waste of time.

    1. If the C65 ROM gets open sourced tomorrow, we have several routines we can transplant to improve the original ROMs.
    2. This project is not just for Mega65. I really want to have a Kernal for my Ultimate 64 which can talk both JiffyDOS and DolphinDOS without ROM switching, for now ours is the only one capable of doing so. Main problem is the compatibility, which is not too good as of yet.
    3. I'm having fun working on it.

    Also don't forget that the OpenROMs solve the legal uncertainty for emulators to include a working ROM set.

    It all depends on the rate of compability.


    Besides the own "fun working on it" it could be frustrating, if some people works much on a OpenROM and then 99% of all Mega65 buyers uses the original ROMs because of 100% compabitily. So all the work for the OpenROMs was just for "own fun".

    Zitat von Snoopy

    It all depends on the rate of compability.


    Besides the own "fun working on it" it could be frustrating, if some people works much on a OpenROM and then 99% of all Mega65 buyers uses the original ROMs because of 100% compabitily. So all the work for the OpenROMs was just for "own fun".

    Someone who works 'just for the fun of it', can't never be disapointed and/or frustrated if others don't use his work.

    Remember: he did it solely because he has fun doing it. So he already reached his goal.

    Zitat von Freddy
    Zitat von Snoopy

    It all depends on the rate of compability.


    Besides the own "fun working on it" it could be frustrating, if some people works much on a OpenROM and then 99% of all Mega65 buyers uses the original ROMs because of 100% compabitily. So all the work for the OpenROMs was just for "own fun".

    Someone who works 'just for the fun of it', can't never be disapointed and/or frustrated if others don't use his work.

    Remember: he did it solely because he has fun doing it. So he already reached his goal.

    Ok, if someone uses his sparetime only to "have fun" it doesn't matter.


    But I still haven't seen an opensource software developer yet, who don't care about if someone else uses his software. It's only human to be glad, if someone uses your software and more glad if they find it good.


    In a objective way of view, an OpenROM which isn't compatible "enough" is more or less "useless" for the majority of the other users. Why should someone use a OpenROM with less compability if the original 100% ROM is "just one click away"?

    Zitat von Snoopy

    Why should someone use a OpenROM with less compability if the original 100% ROM is "just one click away"?

    Why does someone use Linux although his computer was delivered with Windows?

    Zitat von Snoopy

    In a objective way of view, an OpenROM which isn't compatible "enough" is more or less "useless" for the majority of the other users. Why should someone use a OpenROM with less compability if the original 100% ROM is "just one click away"?

    For the features the original ROM does not have.


    And there are brute-force ways to improve the compatibility. For example, one can currently build a hybrid ROM, containing OpenROMs Kernal and original BASIC code - it is much more compatible (but currently you lose a DOS Wedge this way). AFAIK the Mega65 ROM is really a RAM (just visible as ROM in the C64 mapping) - so it will probably be possible to use OpenROMs for disk browsing/file loading (excluding autostart software, we are already way better than original ROMs for this purpose), replace the 'ROM' visible in C64 mode with original one, and then run the game. I suppose we could reuse GO64 keyword from BASIC 10 to implement something like this.

    Besides - compatibility will certainly improve over time. Example: a lot of software appears to hang waiting for the user to press a key, there is no reaction on key press. Quick check with VICE: on original ROMs the interrupts are enabled at this moment (thus the keyboard scanning works), on Open ROMs IRQs are masked (which means no keyboard scanning). Most likely reason: some Kernal routine enables interrupts before exiting, OpenROM does not do it. I just need to take some time to find out which one...

    Zitat von Freddy
    Zitat von Snoopy

    Why should someone use a OpenROM with less compability if the original 100% ROM is "just one click away"?

    Why does someone use Linux although his computer was delivered with Windows?

    Because he don't need and want to use Windows. I use both. :)


    Ok, let's say, someone develop an open ROM for the C64, let's name it Open64ROM. It's a very good work, it's nearly 90% compatible to the original C64 Rom.


    And now the question: How many users of the VICE emulator would use the Open64ROM instead of the original one if they use the emulator for playing C64 games? ;)

    Zitat von Snoopy

    Because he don't need and want to use Windows. I use both. :)


    Ok, let's say, someone develop an open ROM for the C64, let's name it Open64ROM. It's a very good work, it's nearly 90% compatible to the original C64 Rom.


    And now the question: How many users of the VICE emulator would use the Open64ROM instead of the original one if they use the emulator for playing C64 games? ;)

    In VICE??

    I guess no one would realy move to OpenROM, except those who are interested in the development of the OpenROM.

    But it seems you misunderstood why OpenROM is developped: It is for clones like the MEGA65 and Ultimate etc.pp.

    And in my point of view: it is the start of an OpenROM for the MEGA65. Someday it will be the default ROMS for MEGA65 own mode.

    .

    Moreover, all this discussing is theoretical. You are talking about things that have nothing to do with the Mega65, as the MEGA team has it's goals and I would encourage you not to capture this thread for theoretic speculations.

    Thanks!

    Zitat von Freddy
    Zitat von Snoopy

    Why should someone use a OpenROM with less compability if the original 100% ROM is "just one click away"?

    Why does someone use Linux although his computer was delivered with Windows?

    Because it lets the emulators ship able to run at least some software, and show a nice friendly READY prompt, instead of requiring the user to do some complicated things first. It gives a legally certain fall back position. Of course most people might want to use the genuine ROMs. That's fine. But for those users for whom it is too complicated, will still have something to use.


    LG

    Paul.

    Zitat von manne_sahne

    It shouldn't be a big thing to sent an e-mail to microsoft, cloanto, C= Holding and Polabe NV to clearify the rights issue.

    And if none or not all of them response, the situation will stay unclear.


    The additional problem with the C65 ROM is, that it never was official released. So maybe even the companies you mentioned couldn't say if they hold the rights of it.

    Zitat von Snoopy

    The additional problem with the C65 ROM is, that it never was official released. So maybe even the companies you mentioned couldn't say if they hold the rights of it.

    If nobody asks, we will never get an answer.

    I think cloanto is the most propable rights holder. Has anyone tried to took contact to cloanto?

    I think it fits best here ...


    I just read an article about the legal aspects (in the US) at reverse engineering (RE).


    An interesting point is, to divide the programmers of the RE project in two groups:


    Zitat

    There are laws about the copyright that someone who reverse-engineers must take care of in open source projects, and the common approach to this problem is to divide the programmers into 2 groups:

    1. The one who disassembles the code of the program/firmware and writes the specifications.
    2. The second group that makes a program using these specifications.

    This should help to avoid a lawsuit because of accusation of illegal copy.

    Zitat von manne_sahne

    I think cloanto is the most propable rights holder. Has anyone tried to took contact to cloanto?

    Yes, we already did. but it is hard to get hold of Mike. We are still in communication.

    That's why we're going this road, as long as we don't have anything written, better safe than sorry...

    The main problem I see here is who own which right of which part of the ROMs?

    As we all know, the ROMs have 2 different parts: the 'OS' itself (kernal) and BASIC.

    As we all also know, there must be a change in agreement between Commodore and Micro$oft after the 3.6 release, because starting with BASIC 7 Commodore added the (c) Micro$oft @ startup.

    So 'cloanto' might have the (c)-rights for the KERNAL, but I think they don't heritate the agreement between CBM & M$..