letzter Beitrag von Targas am
I still don't get the point here ...
Would anyone here when buying a new Ryzen 5 CPU running at 3,7Ghz REALLY consider running it at a lower speed ?
I don think so ... and even if it is that way, everythng below 3,7Ghz would be rated "SlowMotion Mode" or something while 3,7Ghz would be the "DEFAULT" one ....
I voted for 40MHz. I'm neither interested in the C65 mode, as it never existed anyway, and also not in the C64 mode, as there are more then enough original and modern machines available. I know that I will write my programs such, that they switch to 40MHz first thing at startup so I definitely would prefer to have it already run at that by default.
I would like to see a compelling reason why anybody would want to run voluntarily in slow motion. For C64 mode it is not needed and for C65 there are not enough programs IMO.
What one should consider is, that Bitshifter achieved performance improvements by correcting awkward calculation approaches from former time for some commands. This alone brought pretty good speed improvements. So running in 3,5Mhz is probably feeling like running at 5Mhz.
I would like to find out, if this is sufficient for some basic programs to run adequately, now.
Apfelmännchen/Mandelbrot calculations that took more than 24 hours, will finish in some minutes, if run at 40Mhz, and programmed in Basic. In machine language, those drawings are even faster.
They are at least twice as fast as on the CommanderX16 to my knowledge.
Such applications really showcase the MEGA65 performance.
For self prgrammed basic games however, 40Mhz might not be needed. We‘ll see.
I would like to find out, if this is sufficient for some basic programs to run adequately, now.
But even with 40Mhz "DEFAULT" you can do that ... just set your own Basic Program to 3,5Mhz at the beginning .... has NOTHING to do with the default speed ....
If we turn back the time 7 to 8 years and Paul would ask me if a 40 MHz mode would be useful for an 8 bit C65 replica, I would have said "no". Nonsense! An 8 bit computer with such a speed doesn't feel like back then, it seems "fake". I would have liked much more an "exact" replica of the C65, as Commodore intended it. 
But this question didn't come so and the MEGA65 has now many extensions compared to the C65 and also the 40 MHz as speed. It is there now and it won't go away.
So the MEGA65 is an 8 bit computer with 40 MHz. This can and may be stupid and "inappropriate", but you simply have to live with the fact that these 40 MHz are the standard for the MEGA65. As already written several times here, it is understandably "nonsensical" for many to let a computer run with a tenth of its speed, although it can easily do more. A "limitation" whose removal is only a BASIC command away is no real limitation.
With words of Merkel:
"Nu is es halt da".
Deal with it!
I would like to find out, if this is sufficient for some basic programs to run adequately, now.
But even with 40Mhz "DEFAULT" you can do that ... just set your own Basic Program to 3,5Mhz at the beginning .... has NOTHING to do with the default speed ....
I‘m not arguing, but other 7 reasons mentioned previously in this thread. Nevermind. 😉
With words of Merkel:
"Nu is es halt da".
Deal with it!
Jaja, ‚wir schaffen das‘ …
I still don't get the point here ...
Would anyone here when buying a new Ryzen 5 CPU running at 3,7Ghz REALLY consider running it at a lower speed ?
I don think so ... and even if it is that way, everythng below 3,7Ghz would be rated "SlowMotion Mode" or something while 3,7Ghz would be the "DEFAULT" one ....
that's a bad example, since modern CPUs are indeed throttling, and you can also overclock them 
For those who don't read the Discord channel, I would like to quote two statements from MEGA team members on this thread topic, which I think fit in quite well here:
1mhz for c64 makes sense, because it enables compatibility. I personally run c64 side alway on 40mhz too, because good games are not affected, or even enhanced. but loading and decrunching is super convenient. for 3,5 mhz c65 side there is no reason to exist, because noc c65 software exists. who -ever- made his computer slower for a reason but to enhance compatibility? and this reason does not exist for c65. there is no reason to have 3,5 mhz, that is my opinion.
i also think you can only judge that if you have worked with both a real c65 and a mega65 for a while. the c65 is too slow to use its own features. it feels broken. bitplane mode is unusable because it is too slow. it all makes sense and falls together in the mega65. i think we made a very good decision.
AFAIK, there are even plans to enable a fine tuning of CPU speed, which would make every speed between 1 and 40 Mhz selectable.
that's a bad example, since modern CPUs are indeed throttling, and you can also overclock them
Nope, it is a perfect example ... the Mega65 got a 8-bit GS4510 at 40MHz, build into FPGA, so everything below would be .... lets say IDLE-mode ?
that's a bad example, since modern CPUs are indeed throttling, and you can also overclock them
Nope, it is a perfect example ... the Mega65 got a 8-bit GS4510 at 40MHz, build into FPGA, so everything below would be .... lets say IDLE-mode
Modern computers never run at full speed unless they need to, so the parallel would be 3.5MHz, and only running at 40MHz if really needed.
so far all (99%) BASIC programs for the MEGA65 use the 40 MHz
That's rather an argument on keeping the 3.5 MHz default at powerup. Since the applications are all doing it on their own (by setting up the turbo mode for themselves when needed), you won't need to start up the machine in the fastest mode already.
Or, at least for me, one of the main teachings of the retro computing is to only use something if you actually need it (and not just because you can).
Another point is that there might be some future ports of the C65/M65 cores to other environments as well, where not all of the M65 features could be taken on or implemented later (e.g. due to a smaller FPGA chip or less memory etc.), thus some of them might be missing or slightly cut-down for some reason. Having a conservative C65-only feature set on startup as a common denomination and keeping it as a standard may help the portability of software, too.
Better to think of them as a nice option of scalability to make it better occasionally than a strict requirement for anything (similarly as we consider the C64's or C128's CPU accelerators, memory expansions and mass-storage drives etc. mainly as an option).
That's rather an argument on keeping the 3.5 MHz default at powerup. Since the applications are all doing it on their own (by setting up the turbo mode for themselves when needed), you won't need to start up the machine in the fastest mode already.
As deft as one of the devolpers of the MEGA65 wrote in the quote above, the 3.5 Mhz in the MEGA65 are "useless". They are too slow for the features of the C65 and especially of the MEGA65. So there is no reason to have the 3.5 MHz at all. They are still there because of using the old original C65 ROMs, but even there the 3.5 Mhz are too slow for using all C65 features.
So I can see no argument for using the 3.5 MHz or even put it as a default speed. The MEGA65 "needs" the 40 Mhz and that's why nearly all programs use them.
The C128 didn't start in C64 mode either. It's a MEGA65, it should start as a MEGA65.
The C128 didn't start in C64 mode either. It's a MEGA65, it should start as a MEGA65.
But most people used it in C64 mode anyway according to the logic of "most BASIC games use 40 MHz", the MEGA65 should start in 3.5 MHz mode so most people can switch to the other mode 
If Commodore had released the C65 with a 40MHz abilltiy, would they have released it with 3.5MHz as their startup default? I doubt it.
So what Commodore would have done is the right thing to do. 
But most people used it in C64 mode anyway
That may be, but the we are not talking about what people can do after the machine has started, but what the default startup should be. And the C128 was NOT starting in C64 mode by default. The user had to take specific action to do this. Either by pressing the Commodore key at startup, or by switching manually to C64 mode. There is not even a key that enables that without user interaction.
With the same logic, you could say that we should show all sprites at startup, because if people don't want them to be seen, they can easily disable them... 
That was a joke
That was a joke
Please do not joke around here. This is a serious and important topic of vital and worldwide importance: Should the MEGA65 start by default at a speed that is too slow for it to work reasonably? Should the MEGA team make the same mistake as Commodore did in the 1990s, or rather make different ones of their own? We should have found a compromise by the end of the year 2022, which lets all sleep halfway calmly and with which also our grandchildren can still live well! 
Should the MEGA team make the same mistake as Commodore did in the 1990s, or rather make different ones of their own?
Well that's easy to answer: "Finish what Commodore did"
In the end it's the decision of the MEGA65 team anyway, and I hope to be able to enjoy the computer no matter which speed is considered the default one
