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Regarding the Xemu iso - Any advices how I should deal with this mail?

  • Today I received the mail below and my first thought was: That has to be a joke of someone you wants to feel cool for a minute. The iso is only a few days online and I have no clue, what should be under the copyright of this company? I don't even mentioned the name "Commodore" in any text regarding the iso. And the rights of the C65 ROM I thought has Cloanto. So why should this be a real mail from that company?


    I has removed the name of the sender (no more problems with legal issues ...)


    But on second thought I'm getting unsure wheather it could be a real request for deleting the iso file from the filehoster? Should I better ask at commodore-cbm.com what they are complaining about or does this maybe waking up sleeping dogs?


    Any advices especially from the Mega team about this? I really have no thought about a possible copyright issue, besides the offered download of the ROM from zimmers.net? :nixwiss:

  • Uhhhhh. IANAL .... But they should specify exactly what part they have problem with at all ... Then they can sue ubuntu and almost every other Linux distros that they have VICE which can emulate Commodore machines ...


    In my (!!!!!) opinion, they're just trolls and kidding. Otherwise I cannot understand why it's good for them to do at all.


    One very serious effect I can sense here, that the amount of these kind of mails will be more frequent around MEGA65 in general in the future, I'm afraid. if some people smell some money they try to "extract". As far as I can see, they often plays the game that "poor hobby programmers will be scared so they will comply". But anyway, I can't see the point if they don't want money, just to remove something.


    Ok, enough blah-blah from me, I think (again, IANAL!) they MUST specify what their problem is, exactly!!!! Most of the ISO is Xubuntu actually. A minor part is Xemu (heh, should I be scared that I will be sued as well?????), but I guess it does not contain any intellectual property they may own (if they own _anything_ for real and not just saying it ...). This reminds me SCO versus Linux unfortunately when a company can sue somebody without clear statement what they find as their own property ... That's really tragic if world works this way :(

  • Btw legal warning :) --->: do not treat my opinion above as an advice! I think there are people in the MEGA65 team knows much more about legal backgrounds. What I've written above was only my personal opinion, nothing more. <end_of_legal_statement> ;)


    At the other hand, now you can see, why I was hesitating to include options in xemu to download the ROM by Xemu itself, and other "comfortable" options for the user ... And why I want to remove the "make roms" stuff, etc. :( :(


    I've started to chat on this with the team though, meanwhile.

  • At the other hand, now you can see, why I was hesitating to include options in xemu to download the ROM by Xemu itself, and other "comfortable" options for the user ... And why I want to remove the "make roms" stuff, etc. :( :(

    Thanks for your opinion! ;)


    I thought that the rights of the C65 ROM belongs to Cloanto. So if there would be a request from Cloanto, I could understand that better. But what should have commodore-cbm to do with the C65 ROM?


    So, if it's a real mail, I guess they are complaining about some other stuff? :/

  • Hi Snoopy,


    no worries, i've just sent you an email at [email protected].


    We're on it !

  • The email is not a proper and professional cease and desist letter because - as LGB-Z rightly pointed out - it does not specify in any way what kind of intellectual property (IP) is supposed to be violated by the content of the ISO.


    However, it seems that some Italian guys have established a company with the name Commodore Engineering srl (this is the Italian equivalent of a German GmbH, i.e., could be a very small company with minimum share capital) with the internet domain „commodore-cbm“. They claim to have revitalised the Commodore brand and even seem to sell some weired products with the Commodore logo.


    At the end of the day, the legal assessment and therefore the relevance of the threat entirely depends on the factual question as to whether (i) they actually own Commodore-related IP and (ii) such IP has been used in the ISO. Unfortunately, I have no information on the ownership history of Commodore-related IP and cannot opine on this question.

  • No idea. A faint memory that Commodore heritage is kinda fragmented, the trendmark itself "Commodore" may belongs to other company than other rights etc. IIRC there were even companies have the Commodore name can be applied ONLY for certain things but not for others (IIRC there was something about CDs or whatever can be released in the name of Commodore by a given company but no other usage of the name is allowed for them).

  • Hi Snoopy.


    Mail received and information forwarded.


    We update you asap !


    No worries, first we're interested, WHAT part violences the copyright...


    What's next ? They try to sue the Vice team ? :-D

  • They will sue the MEGA-Team for violating the VIC IV 'intelectual property :-D

  • Here's a little status update:


    Besides the great help of the Mega team, I had a private conversation today with a colleague who works in the legal department of my current client and he calmed me down even more.


    It is, as has already been noted here in the thread, that an alleged violation of the law must also be specified exactly, which rights are violated and why.


    As long as that doesn't happen, it's a guesswork for me what I could have done wrong with the iso file.


    So I will leave the file online for now and wait and see if something more concrete comes up again. I'm assuming that the mail was a fake and that someone was having "fun" with it.


    My conclusion: As long as I don't know exactly what I should have done wrong, the file remains online.


    Because I don't want to live in a society where, for exaggerated fear of violations of the law, no one dares to do anything because they could do something wrong. I don't want to violate any rights, but I want to know which I violate if it is.

  • It's strange that the mail hasn't been written by lawyer in the first place...

    We're talking about an italian company and not a german company - I do not know italian laws but that _might_ be a hint ;)

    Also the e-mail is just a "please take down" notice, no lawyer (yet) involved and as already pointed out the e-mail fails to specify which part(s) are claimed to be copyrighted.

  • It's strange that the mail hasn't been written by lawyer in the first place...

    We're talking about an italian company and not a german company - I do not know italian laws but that _might_ be a hint ;)

    Also the e-mail is just a "please take down" notice, no lawyer (yet) involved and as already pointed out the e-mail fails to specify which part(s) are claimed to be copyrighted.

    Assuming it's a real mail, then it is only an informal request to delete the file from the filehoster. Such a mail can be from any person according to the company. Let me rephrase it as a "friendly hint".


    But even then, I have to know what I have done wrong. Without such an information it's more like a "Hey, you made something wrong. So delete your work, because I say so!" And that sounds "absurd" for me. So I'm still thinking it's only a fake mail. Unless the sender concretizes his accusation ...

  • I was dealing with an employee from the legal department of my client today for a professional matter and had an interesting conversation with him about this case during lunch together. Among other things, he deals with the legal issues of the company, especially software and its legal protection. So I'm assuming he knows what he's saying. ;)


    In his opinion, as a person living in Germany, I have to assume that I am not 100 percent on the safe side with the distribution of the iso file.


    The crux of the matter is, in his opinion, that I not only link to the C65 ROM, but even offer it for download with a single mouse click. The user is probably not even aware at this moment that he is downloading a copyrighted file. In any case, there is no clear warning at the point where for the download is asked.


    Because of my work as a software developer and simply because of my contributions here in the forum, it is most likely that I will be aware in case of court that I must be know that the C65 ROM is protected.


    In this respect, it is anything but legally certain that I offer a "link" or even a download option for the protected ROM. He mentioned the corresponding German court decisions regarding links to legally relevant pages or content, so I believe him too.


    Regardless of whether the mail I mentioned in the first post is genuine or not, there would still be uncertainty that a legal warning or even a lawsuit by the rights holder or a representative would flutter into the house.


    He sees the risk of this as unlikely, but not as zero! :(


    I would only have 100% legal certainty if the rights holder of the C65 ROM (as far as I know it's Cloanto) would allow the use of the ROM for such a live system in writing. Then no download from a "dubious" page would be necessary, but I could simply include the ROM to the live system.


    As long as there is no such permit, a legal sword of Damocles always hovers over me because of the iso file.


    At least that's the legal situation as I see it in Germany. :/


    And we are talking here about an unfinished ROM, written nearly 30 years ago, never been used in a published computer and (nearly) without any use before the Mega65 was created. :honk:

  • If Cloanto owns the rights to the C65 ROM and does not agree with its use in the ISO file, I agree that this could pose a risk. However, there is no written form requirement for the consent, i.e., as long as there is sufficient evidence that they consented to the use, this should be fine. I might have misread the other thread, but I thought that the Mega Team was quite relaxed as far as Cloanto is concerned. Wouldn't it be possible to obtain an express consent from Cloanto? I guess commercially this should be entirely irrelevant to them.

  • Cloanto has the rights for the C65 ROM as far as we know.


    This commodore-cbm Company claims that they have the rights on the Name Commodore and the Logo as far as i know.

    If they have a Problem with the ISO it should be because of using the Name Commodore or the Commodore Logo as Graphics or similar.

    I dont know the ISO so i dont know if that could be the case.